133. Rola Aina: Why Emotionally Intelligent Leaders Will Win With AI

Iyabo Oba: 00:00:10

Welcome to Relationships with AI. I'm your host, Yabo Oba, and welcome to another episode of the show.

Today I have the pleasure of speaking to Rola Aina and she is the tech transformation consultant and also the founder of Turntrup. And so, Rola, you're very welcome, very excited to have you on. Please, would you like to. You're welcome.

And please could you say a little bit about what you do, what is text and transformation consultancy about, and also tell us a bit more about your startup.

Rola Aina: 00:00:52

Sure, sure. So, as you said, my name's Rola. I.

I'm a tech transformation consultant firstly, and I spent most of my career helping big global companies navigate change, usually fairly complex, and especially change where it comes to emerging technology. Throughout my career, I've always been in that sort of sweet spot where new tech meets, you know, having to convert that to real business impact.

And, you know, been super passionate about kind of using innovation and using that to drive impact.

And, you know, I really believe that right now this current wave of AI advancement is one of the biggest opportunities we've got to level the playing field across the world, both for companies and for, you know, the disadvantaged in our society, which is really where Turn Troop came from. And the inspiration was in effectively to level that playing field.

So at Turn Troop, we help medium and large organizations adopt AI in a way that's responsible, scalable and impactful. So currently building a platform that simplifies and structures AI adoption.

But also we do that while creating meaningful social impact by tapping into a talent base that's primarily located in Africa. The big mission is to make AI easy to adopt, seamless, to scale and built for lasting transformation. And, yeah, that's what we do.

Iyabo Oba: 00:02:24

Amazing. Well, looking forward to delving far deeper into what township's about and also your expertise.

But firstly, because it's relationships with AI, we love to kick off with that sort of angle and theme.

And so my question to you is, what's been an important relationship in your life and how has that relationship influenced or helped shape your decisions?

Rola Aina: 00:02:52

I think, you know, without a doubt, the first, you know, relationships that come to mind. The most important relationships in my life are with God and, you know, with my parents, with my mum.

My faith is, you know, the compass that I sort of always return to. I'm a Christian, Jesus is my homeboy. But that's such a millennial reference showing my age.

Iyabo Oba: 00:03:18

But I mean, it comes to us all. Comes to us all.

Rola Aina: 00:03:26

My relationship with God kind of Shapes how I show up in the world and shapes, you know, the kind of business that I'm trying to build, you know, grounds me in compassion and. And makes me want to lead with kindness even when it's really hard. The most important thing, I think, is that it just. It's the service element. Yeah.

I think what's really important for me is that, you know, sometimes the kind of entrepreneur hustle and especially in tech, because of how quickly things move. Yeah. Others is kind of seen as like a distraction in terms of, you know. Yes. Pure customer service that you can directly. Directly talk to sales.

But more broadly, for me, you know, I think what my faith does is remind me that service to others is actually the success. It's not a distraction. It is the success being in service to others.

Iyabo Oba: 00:04:13

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:04:15

And in terms of my family, when I think about the most important relationship, I'm the only daughter in my family, so I'm very close to my mum, and Nigerian mums are very special people. They are indeed their children. So, you know, there's a next level of support, next level of pride.

And, you know, my mom thinks I'm the best thing since sliced bread.

And, you know, I think that kind of love fills you up and it gives you sort of quiet power to move through the world with purpose and really believe that, you know, not just that you can do things, but that you should. And. Yeah. And, you know, I think she taught me generosity.

She taught me how to be charitable, how to show up for others, all of things that are really, really big elements of what I'm trying to build. And my dad, too. Let's not leave him out.

Iyabo Oba: 00:05:11

Yeah. He's quite important to the process as well.

Rola Aina: 00:05:15

You know, I think both of them just gave me a really, like, lovely balance of, you know, deep, deep encouragement, but really high standards.

Iyabo Oba: 00:05:23

Yes.

Rola Aina: 00:05:23

And, yeah, it just raised me to believe that I could and should do things. And.

Iyabo Oba: 00:05:27

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:05:28

You know, I think that culturally, that layer of being Nigerian. Yeah. Urgency to everything I do, because I look at Africa and I just see crazy potential. Yes.

But I also see how charity alone can't solve systemic problems. You know, as much as to be a core kind of value for me. You know, Africa doesn't need any more charities. We don't need any more saviors.

We need more CEOs.

We need commerce, and we need commerce that, you know, centers, people, senses, dignity, you know, and that commerce will demand infrastructure be built around it. And I really believe AI is the big thing that's going to help us get to that Fairer future if we're very intentional about how we use it.

Iyabo Oba: 00:06:17

Yeah, that is a brilliant answer. I think it's quite, it's amazing. So now we're going to get into the real meat of our discussion.

But thank you so much for sharing that, all of what you had to say about the continent. Also from coming from the roots of Nigeria, my fellow Nigeria. Always great to speak to people who are doing inspiring things such as yourself.

So we're looking forward to unpacking the incredible areas that you're touching on and the areas that you want to see you're innovating within. So first off, you said that generosity mentioned earlier and, and, and purpose drive your work.

So how do those values influence the way that you approach both leadership and your relationship with AI?

Rola Aina: 00:07:13

I think, you know, like I said, generosity is pretty foundational for me. Yeah. So as a person, but also as a sort of strategic lever. Yeah, you know, I don't see generosity as soft or secondary.

You know, I think that for me, if I think about leadership, I think the most generous leaders are often the most visionary because they're willing to kind of, you know, they're willing to uplift others, they're willing to give without immediate gain, which allows you to think more long term and they create sort of structures that benefit more people than themselves and that replicates in terms of AI. I think that does translate into how we build, how we lead.

I think one thing that's really important for me is that generosity means building much more inclusive tools. It's great that, you know, we're now in the era of kind of no code and low code tools.

But I think that there is still, you know, a cost obstacle, you know, for some organizations, you know, largest organizations that you know, I worked at for a number of years have been investing in AI for you know, 10 years or more.

But you know, for kind of thinking about township for our market is more of your medium sized business and doesn't necessarily have that level of budget. So I think it's really important to democratize, you know, access to AI as much as possible thinking from a business perspective.

Because I say from an individual perspective, you know, eventually lots of us can get access to the, you know, the LLMs, chat, GPT and the like.

But if I think about, you know, the generosity point and, and, and you know, kind of what that means to me and you know, within my business as well, I think there's a big element about kind of sharing knowledge. I think one of the things that scuppers your Much longer.

Organizations that over time try to, you know, start to start to crumble is when everything kind of becomes very siloed.

So that element of generosity and, you know, one of the great things that AI has done is, you know, allowed so many people to get access to, you know, knowledge that they wouldn't otherwise have been able to get access to or certainly wouldn't have been able to get access to as easily or as quickly and from.

You know, looking at the Africa piece, for me, the generosity point is, you know, making sure that this huge wave of innovation doesn't leave people behind. I think it's really important that we're constantly thinking about how we bring everybody along. And you talked about purpose.

I realize I haven't said much about purpose, but, you know, I think purpose is a really, really is. Is another compass for me.

You know, purpose is the reason that, you know, I walked away from, you know, safe corporate roles and, you know, freelance and starting my own business. Because for me, you know, I think. I think we all have a purpose if we. If, you know, if we kind of dig deep enough.

And I think it's really important to find something that, like, excites you and scares you in equal measure. And usually your. Your purpose is somewhere in there.

And I think for me, like, purpose is going to be the thing that, you know, as we grow, is going to make us stop and go, you know, zoom out of, you know, data and figures and numbers and quarterly reports and say, what are we actually doing here? Who is it benefiting?

Are we still kind of align with what we intend to do, which is change, you know, millions of lives, ultimately is the big vision.

Iyabo Oba: 00:10:55

Yeah, no, I mean, that's really interesting. I love the fact that you're talking about how the use of AI and your experience with it in your previous more corporate working experiences has.

It sort of stops people being siloed and then that whole.

The whole collaboration piece, bringing people together from all different types of backgrounds using this powerful tool, but also the fact that it's. There's so much potential within it. You've also, you've already touched on some of the reasons why you started your business, but I wanted to.

Your startup, I wanted to ask what made you take the leap into founding your own company and how has that decision changed your relationship with risks and trust in technology?

Rola Aina: 00:11:47

I think I. I reached a point where I couldn't not do it in terms of starting my company.

You know, I'd spent a long time, a lot of years inside huge institutions.

Iyabo Oba: 00:11:58

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:11:59

And you Know, kind of developed a niche. I, you know, often being the one who was called in when things were already on fire.

So it was kind of like, you know, project stored, and everybody's misaligned. It's not landing. Call me, you know, you know, I'd sit in an interview and it would be, this project is two years behind. Nobody understands the.

We've built this technological black box. Stakeholders are angry. Roller, can you. Can you come in and save it by Friday? Was basically the. The vibe for a long time. Wow.

You know, exciting and hugely rewarding because you do feel like you're making a difference, because I think by nature I'm a fixer. So you're basically coming in and you're tidying things up and you're fixing everything.

But I think for me, what was not great is that one of the reasons that you run into these very messy transformations, there's so much money wasted on messy, stressful, and ultimately unsuccessful transformations. Especially, you know, and I'm talking specifically about big tech transformations in businesses.

And I think the pattern was very much that it was always building tech around people instead of trying to build tech with them. So it was a case of, we have this goal, maybe it's a registry report that needs to be submitted, and we need.

We don't currently have the technology to actually gather the data, assess it, and be able to submit that report. We need you to build it. And it's like, map out the process and to some extent, map out, you know, people and what they're doing.

But I think in terms of actually not just implementing the transformation, but making it stick, people are the key. And, you know, I kind of saw that that was missing, and I felt like, you know, there has to be a better way.

And if there is a better way, why don't I try and make that simpler and make it more structured and make sure it's ethical and it's rooted in social impact, which is kind of what, you know, what I'm doing with Turntrip. And you talked about risk, which.

The first thing that came to mind is that I think starting a business teaches you to make peace with risk, because I think fear, you learn anyway that fear is not a stop sign. It's actually just data. It's actually just information.

Iyabo Oba: 00:14:26

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:14:27

And I. Yeah. And I think, you know, nothing, you know, great gets accomplished without there being a huge element of risk involved.

So, you know, I think the startup journey, the leap, is a risk, but actually building a business is constantly managing risk.

And I think a lot of that Maybe comes from being in financial services as well, where it's not about limiting risk, it's just about managing risks and being very kind of cognizant of the risk that you're taking and what your benefit is.

Iyabo Oba: 00:15:02

That's really interesting to hear about all of those different points I was going to ask, and you described using that particular tool as, or AI as your tool. You say you see it as your cheaper staff and how AI has helped you in your sort of early stage founders process of your startup.

And what does, where does it still. Or where has it still fallen short for you though?

Rola Aina: 00:15:37

I think at the end of the day, you know, AI is not human is where it falls short for me in the sense that, you know, I use, you know, sort of chat, GPT and Claude as kind of like interns, the chief of staff you mentioned, so they're great as kind of a brainstorming partner to clarify my thinking. They're good in terms of structuring, you know, if I just, I just want to do a brain dump, you can help me structure it.

But I think what's missing is kind of, is nuance.

I think there's always that kind of element of judgment missing for me because I think, you know, I can give you suggestions, but it can't necessarily tell you what really most, you know, where there's any kind of ambiguity because that's human stuff. That's human.

So I feel like whilst these tools have been incredibly useful and I'm talking specifically about the chat bots, I think there is still that element of it's not human, you know, I think, you know, we're actually reaching a time now where, well, for me anyway, that it's becoming increasingly rare for me to receive like a long email or see like a long LinkedIn post that has been, you know, that hasn't been somehow influenced by, you know, using chatbot. And for me it's actually like quite. It's really, really wonderful.

When I read a long post, I can tell written by human, there's no kind of element of, you know, of chatbot in there because you can feel it. You can't necessarily put your finger on it if you know, kind of edit it how, you know, they could certainly, which is what I tried to do.

You can certainly use a chatbot but, you know, then make changes that make it sound more like you, etc, but sometimes you can just tell that it was genuinely written like from the ground up, you know, kind of all in the brain. That's such a nice. It now it seems like it's almost, almost becoming an offer. Definitely on LinkedIn.

Iyabo Oba: 00:17:39

Yeah, premium.

Rola Aina: 00:17:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that is what's going to happen, right?

I think people who can write and write really beautifully and in a way that, you know, when you're reading it, you're like, your soul knows it was written by a human, are going to be much, much more in demand.

Iyabo Oba: 00:18:01

Interesting, interesting times that we're living in, for sure.

So, just continuing on with your startup journey as a founder, how do you balance trusting your own instincts and using AI tools that claim to know you better?

Rola Aina: 00:18:21

So I don't think any AI tools can know you better. Well, in the sense that I do think that there is something in all humans, that there's an element of mystery. I very much embrace kind of the mystery.

So I think for me, in terms of trusting my own instincts, I think I've, I've honed that over time.

And so even if, you know, the AI is presenting me with information, I'm always, if I kind of, you know, take the time to listen, I'm always going to have a sense of, you know, what I think is right.

And I think maybe also because I know that, you know, in general, if you're using any of the, in general, not just, I was going to say chatbots, but actually AI in general needs to be checked always. Yeah.

So I don't have this sense that I'm dealing with, you know, this tool that knows more than me and is always going to be right because there's so many elements and, you know, you know, can't, I guess the word is kind of surpass what humans can do in that element. Well, I haven't really found, you know, the increase of, you know, AI in my life and in my business causing me to doubt my instinct.

If anything, it makes kind of hone my instinct even more and rely on, you know, you build up instincts over the course of a career, over the course of a life. You know, in business and in life, you build up instincts about certain things.

And I actually read something yesterday that was talking about, you know, how now there's, you know, research. You quantify, like, you know, the value of the.

I think they use kind of traders, financial traders, you know, like instinct is a real thing and you can actually make better decisions by using your instinct. And it increases over kind of years of experience.

So, yeah, I think for me, with AI tools that claim to know better, I just, I, I, I know they don't, they'll be quicker for sure. But you Know, I, I, they don't, you know, they don't always know better.

Iyabo Oba: 00:20:30

I think it's really interesting as well, like the importance of having sort of that critical. You, you demonstrate through your business and through your skills, that ability to criticize.

Rola Aina: 00:20:41

I've lost the sound.

Iyabo Oba: 00:20:43

Don't worry, we can still keep.

Rola Aina: 00:20:45

Oh, you're back, you're back.

Iyabo Oba: 00:20:46

Sorry, I, Yeah, yeah, don't worry. Dave will edit that bit out.

So I was going to say as well, just another thing, don't worry if the sound goes or if the, if the video from more end sounds like it's not sort of stable. Don't worry about it and just keep going because it's still rendering. Yeah. So going back to the Davis. So going back to the talk, I think.

Rola Aina: 00:21:20

Sorry, I can hear you, but the background noise just got a little bit loud. Then say that bit.

Iyabo Oba: 00:21:27

Okay, I was just going to say. So Dave, starting from here, critical thinking.

So it's just through your experience of work and also your experience of your journey, of your startup to critically assess any information that comes through as you demonstrate.

And that's an expectation that you would have for reviewing any concern work that comes through using any of the AI tools, which is absolutely understandable. So how can, so moving on to my next question.

How can founders and leaders stay emotionally present when AI is designed to optimize for output and not empathy?

Rola Aina: 00:22:14

So I mean, the key thing is that I think as people we don't have to be the AI, we just have to use it. It's a tool.

Iyabo Oba: 00:22:24

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:22:25

So I think in terms of staying emotionally present, it's about keying into what makes you human.

And I think, you know, kind of a leader, you set the tone and you know, if it's always rushing, automating, outsourcing every interaction, you know, sending messages and basically just going, feelings that matter here, you know, things just need to get done. That's dangerous. And you know, there is a risk that more use of AI and kind of optimizing.

Optimizing, optimizing does lead us to that point where it's just about efficiency, getting things done. But I think, you know, when you're, you're in leadership, you're finding a startup, you need to be very intentional about lots of things.

And I think emotional presence is one of them in a sense.

You know, like I said, you, you need to make sure that you're asking real questions and you're kind of giving your team necessary space to take time to kind of understand problems before solving for them.

Because I Think that one of the things that, you know, is slowly dying is, you know, this idea of move fast, break things, you know, because I think there is, there is a slightly slower pace that allows you to, you know, is more ethical and more responsible. Means that you're not just focusing on the end result, but you're actually focusing on the impact of, you know, everyone.

And that's both, you know, in your direct team, but also when we think about responsible and ethical AI the world in terms of your use of AI instead of just this very narrow focus on the problem and solving the problem and kind of screw anything that's, you know, outside of that.

And I think as a founder or as a leader, that sort of being able to have enough empathy to include people and take people on the journey, I think it's not, you know, it's not a luxury, it's like a really, really core part of being a successful leader. And there's loads of data as well to show kind of how companies that have empathetic leaders are way more successful.

So, you know, for me it just, it just makes sense. But I also see how easy it is because of the pace of change with AI. How easy it is to get very carried away and forget about people.

Iyabo Oba: 00:24:55

Yes. Okay, thank you for that.

And then do you think AI is making it harder or easier to form genuine working relationships in a distributed or remote first world?

Rola Aina: 00:25:11

I mean, both, you know, mentioned before that, you know, AI is, is a tool. Your AI is a technology, but there's, you know, various tools within that technology. And like any tool, it just depends how you use it.

You know, I think on one hand AI can help, you know, sort of bridge gaps.

And you know, the big vision for me with my company is BIT is enabling, you know, the millions of incredibly talented people that we have in Africa who don't have work to be able to access, you know, very like high quality roles in, you know, what I'm hoping is, you know, a fantastic environment to work in.

And you know, AI can help bridge that gap between someone who's capable and willing to work versus, you know, organizations, you know, in the uk, Europe, US that need AI talent. But there's a well documented shortage, global shortage talent.

So, you know, both the technology in terms of, you know, the actual tooling that allows you to bridge that gap, but also just the advancement of AI and the interest in IT and you know, the pace of AI adoption can massively bridge that gap in this kind of distributed world, like I said. But I think if we think about it in terms of, you know, let's take your, your chatbots.

You know, the fact that AI now allows you to summarize conversations, you can, you know, you can pick out actions, you can pick out context, you know, and in those ways it can kind of help us work better together.

But it can also become a crutch in the sense that, you know, if we start replacing, you know, sort of check ins with dashboards because you know, it's so easy now to create those or if rather than giving feedback, you know, to employee feedback, we're kind of giving people auto generated insights, you know, from chat gbc, we're definitely going to lose something. So I think, I don't know that AI is making it harder or easier. Again, it's, it's kind of up to individuals how they choose to use it.

I mean it's similar to, you know, kind of mobile phones and, and you know, the fact that barely anybody picks up the phone anymore. So there are some people that, and maybe have used mobile phones to replace their social life.

They don't see their friends anymore, they just WhatsApp them and that's it. But the reality is most people haven't. Most people, you know, still see their friends, still go out and socialize. So I think it's similar with AI.

I think you need to be intentional, you know, genuine relationships need intentionality.

Iyabo Oba: 00:27:58

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:28:00

So, you know, and AI can support that, but it can't replace that.

Iyabo Oba: 00:28:04

Yeah, that's a very sound answer. And so my next question is, why do you think it is important to you to build an AI platform that's powered by African talent?

And how does that change the world's narrative around innovation?

Rola Aina: 00:28:28

So I think one of the big drivers for me was the world needs to know kind of what we have in Africa.

Iyabo Oba: 00:28:38

Yeah. You know, make it known, make it plain.

Rola Aina: 00:28:45

think the big stat is that by: 2030

It's huge.

So even if bias, you should be because you have this massive population and you have this incredibly young, incredibly savvy population that's growing and is gonna, is gonna define something about the world. So why don't we shape it to define, you know, something that's great and something that creates, you know, kind of equity across the globe.

And for me the big dream is to help shift how the world sees Africa by doing what African talent is truly capable of globally.

Because I think, you know, so far we have, you know, if we look at, you know, if we think about outsourcing maybe and organizations that are already using African talent, a lot of it is low. So a lot of it is, you know, of lower skilled jobs. It's not necessarily, you know, you want a very senior, let's say AI engineer.

You're not necessarily thinking Africa first. Africa's reputation is developing around developers, so there is an increasing reputation around developers and software engineers.

But it's not enough.

And so for me I, the big dream is, you know, I want, where people say if you want the best tech talent in the world, you want the best talent, go to Africa. So same way about Silicon Valley for startups, you think about Lagos, Accra, Nairobi, when you're thinking about serious tech talent.

And one of the ways that, you know, I'm working towards that, you know, I want to build this sort of world class AI hub. And I think that I forgot the last part of your question. I was trying to recall the last part of your question.

Iyabo Oba: 00:30:46

No, no, the last part of the question is just to remind you and, and how does that change the political narrative around innovation?

Rola Aina: 00:30:55

Yeah, and I think, you know, I've kind of touched on it already, but I think, yeah, it's a mindset that people think of African talent in a very different light to how they think of Africa now. I think one of the things I'm mindful of with this massive population growth is exploitation potentially.

And there have been, you know, there's been a very significant period in history that we're all aware of where Africa was deeply, deeply exploited. And you know, I think the key thing for me is, you know, as we've mentioned about AI and it being a tool and it, you know, for me AI is neutral.

It's not good, it's not bad, but it can be used for bad things. It can also be used for good things.

So I'm very kind of conscious that, you know, I want to be part of shaping this narrative that ensures that Africa is not exploited as a result of AI. But Africa is known as kind of this global talent hub and by virtue of that very much has a seat on the table because of how good our talent is.

That's kind of the part that I would love to get to.

Iyabo Oba: 00:31:56

I think as well, from the work that you're doing and sure.

In concert with others as well, is that actually with Africa having a seat at the table, it's actually also driving the direction of how this particular tool can help benefit the entire continent as well. So continuing on with Nat theme, what are some of the cultural blind spots that you have seen in mainstream AI tools?

And then second part of the question is, how do you think they affect how we relate to each other across the borders?

Rola Aina: 00:32:36

Whilst, you know, I think for me, whilst I haven't necessarily seen a, you know, something that I felt was a cultural blind spot for me, given that I'm from Potterol, I live in the uk, I've been, you know, I also have the African culture.

But, you know, I'm well aware of all of the issues that seen with various AI tools and AI technologies was, we know that, you know, the materials that they're being trained with, often people that look like you and me are not part of that question, you know, so I think tied to earlier points around generosity and leveling the playing field and choosing to use AI for good, you know, I think AI needs to serve everyone, we want to serve everyone, and everyone needs to be at the table, you know, at the moment, everyone. So I think that's definitely something that I'm very conscious of.

And in terms of what I'm building, I'm very clear that what we're building is a responsible AI solution and making sure that everybody is at the table and we don't end up, you know, we've seen kind of the various things in the news and, and some quite serious things, especially when, you know, AI is used for crime and facial recognition and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, well, so rather than AI being used for crime, AI being used by the police and, you know, facial recognition technology failing and resulting in very serious consequences for people. So I think for me, I haven't, I don't have a sort of, you know, a funny story about a cultural blind spot I've seen, but I know they're there.

And more than just cultural, I think very, very serious blind spots. Yeah, that to be rectified.

Iyabo Oba: 00:34:30

Yeah, no, that's a very sort of comprehensive sort of. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that.

My next question is how do we ensure that AI that we're building doesn't replicate the same biases and hierarchies that already exist in the global economy?

Rola Aina: 00:34:59

I think the first step is just to acknowledge that these inequalities exist because I think part of the issue is, you know, in, in certain circles, not even being allowed to acknowledge that there are inequalities. And I think, you know, sort of the next step is building teams that are diverse.

You know, similar to my point earlier, just, you know, the teams that are actually Working with AI diverse across, you know, race, gender, geography class, which is another one, as well as, you know, I think rather than just having, you know, engineers working on problems, bringing in sociologists, bringing in historians, bringing in people that are concerned about ethics and, you know, the responsible element.

So I think that in order to move forward and not replicate the inequalities that exist now, I think it takes so much more intentionality because if not, we're just going to build what exists now, which is still a deeply, deeply, deeply unequal society.

And I think for me, you know, very early in this journey came a sort of decision focus on not just enabling AI adoption, but enabling responsible, ethical AI adoption.

Iyabo Oba: 00:36:30

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:36:31

Is a really, really key tenet for me because I think we all have to kind of put our money where our mouths are and actually do something as opposed to, I guess, just blindly follow, pick the best tool.

Iyabo Oba: 00:36:46

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:36:47

And, you know, oh, well to, you know, that further deepening the inequalities that we've already got in society and, you know, that's just not an option for me.

Iyabo Oba: 00:36:59

That's good. It's not an option. I agree wholeheartedly.

So wanted to ask, what does thinking about the future of work around the area of leadership and your experience of it? What does emotional intelligence or emotionally intelligent leadership look like within a tech company and especially one that works with AI?

Rola Aina: 00:37:27

So I think emotional intelligence leadership looks the same. Well, should do. Should look the same in every company, irrespective of whether it's tech or not.

I think maybe the assumption is that in tech you get a certain type of character that perhaps doesn't lend itself to, you know, being very, very good at emotional intelligence. But me, emotional intelligence as a leader shows up as some of the stuff that I've talked about before, which is compassion, asking questions.

Yeah, it requires you to slow down.

You know, I think the sort of hustle culture that we were all embracing, you know, a few years ago, you know, always, always prioritizes speed leaders in particular, because, you know, with kind of the advancements in technology, as a leader, you're constantly, you have to stay constantly connected there just, you know, there's never enough hours in the day, it seems.

And I think that that meant that more and more emotional intelligence and, you know, actually talking to people and making space, you know, actually process things and have questions. All of that, you know, very slowly, you know, kind of went out the window. Even in where that wasn't the case before.

There's some industries have always been like that. If you think about you know, maybe banking, whatever. But even in industries where it was all a bit more compassionate, even that such a window.

So I think that, you know, I kind of labor on that point about speed because I think that's probably the biggest entry point to being emotionally intelligent as a leader is slowing down below kind of your pace that you want to go at.

And beyond that, it's really engaging with your team, it's asking questions, it's creating an environment where people feel safe, where people have psychological safety, where they feel like they can make mistakes, they feel like they can try new things. And that's the only way you innovate as well.

Because I think I have lots of very developed theories about innovation and having departments of innovation in companies that I won't bore you with.

But basically, you know, I don't believe in this idea of having a department of innovation, because what you need is an organization where every single employee, you know, has the space and the tools and the knowledge to be able to innovate and come up with new ideas relative to their role. That's how you have a truly innovative company. But that requires, you know, that kind of intentionality.

And it requires leaders that have enough of the emotional intelligence to figure out that actually we're working with people and the things that motivate people and help people to do their best work and help them to thrive haven't really changed. You know, what has changed are, you know, our expectations and the demands and all of that.

And, you know, I think that whilst slowing down, I always call it slowing down to get fast, because actually you slow down, ultimately the result that you end up with is much better than what you would have got when you were kind of moving fast and breaking things. Yeah, yeah. So it was a roundabout answers to the emotional intelligence point. But, you know, ultimately leaders need to slow down.

We all need to slow down.

Iyabo Oba: 00:40:58

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:40:59

I read a great book called Slow Productivity that I would really, really recommend.

Iyabo Oba: 00:41:05

Helps. Do you know who the author is? And perhaps you can drop that in the show notes.

Rola Aina: 00:41:12

You wrote deep work, but my memory is not my strength.

Iyabo Oba: 00:41:17

Yeah, no, we can put that in the show notes. Don't worry, that could be added later.

Rola Aina: 00:41:22

Oh, cow.

Iyabo Oba: 00:41:25

Sorry, could you repeat that? Name and person.

Rola Aina: 00:41:28

So C, A, L and then surname is Newport. N, E, W, P, O, R, C. Brilliant.

Iyabo Oba: 00:41:33

Well, we'll put cap the reference to Cal Imports and in the show notes because that is definitely that whole notion of being able to be reflected in order to make the best decisions going forward. It helps hugely. Could you, if you could reimagine our collective relationship with AI.

What's one value or principle you'd want embedded into the heart of your system?

Rola Aina: 00:42:07

I think that I would go back to generosity, actually, because I think that just encompasses the idea of needing to bring everybody along. I think that if that value were embedded, we would do away with the idea of, you know, building models that don't represent society.

We would do away with the idea of, you know, the, you know, the kind of the cost of AI at the moment and not just, you know, in terms of financial, but the cost of the environment. If we had this principle of generosity embedded and this.

Iyabo Oba: 00:42:48

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:42:48

Principle of including everybody. Inclusion. I didn't want to use the word inclusion, but it kind of is that as well. Then I think that we would end up with AI having a positive.

A net positive impact on the world as opposed to potentially where we are today. You know, if we don't have kind of technological advancement in terms of the energy element of AI, then, you know, we're potentially gonna.

The world is gonna end up more. Worse off because of widespread adoption of AI. So you said one word, but it's kind of generosity and inclusion and. Yeah, bringing everybody along.

Iyabo Oba: 00:43:30

I think that's a great answer. Yeah. I think it's a very holistic way of reimagining how this tool could be used and to benefit society in a wider level.

I mean, as I said, relationships with AI is concerned about how we interconnect. It's about whether or not AI helps to enhance or fracture relationships.

And we're built to being in connection and in close relationship with each other. So how your answer. I felt. I feel that definitely answers that and brings certainly the listener's mind to a different perspective.

Perspective on how this particular tool can be used. So moving into our closing section, and.

Rola Aina: 00:44:20

It'S a bit more sort of light.

Iyabo Oba: 00:44:21

Touch, bit of fun in style, of sort of love island, looking at the warm fuzzies of a relationship and the ick. So with regards to the warm fuzzies, what has been a powerful lesson that you've been given as a gift within a relationship?

Rola Aina: 00:44:40

It. So I think that one of the biggest gifts that relationships have given me is. Is probably the reminder that I'm not an island.

I think we glorify independence so much. And, you know, I.

I grew up with kind of Destiny's Child, literally, you know, independent woman that, you know, and it's, you know, it's a badge of honor. Yeah. So. Yeah, you know, so I think we almost forget that Life is meant to be lived with others. And I. I heard a talk recently by Arthur, Arthur C.

Brooks about this incredible organism called Pando.

And, you know, it looks like a massive forest, and it's acres and acres and acres of trees in Utah, but underneath, it's actually just one single living organism.

And that image really stuck with me because it's kind of how I think about relationships, this sense that we may look separate on the surface, you see lots where you see, like, tens of thousands of individual trees, but actually underneath, we're all very deeply connected. You know, so I think that's the first lesson is kind of, you know, I'm not an island.

And then the flip side is actually the opposite, which is, you know, that's. I think, you know, my experience of relationships have taught me that actually I need to bet on myself.

I can bet on myself, and I should bet on myself.

Iyabo Oba: 00:46:07

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:46:08

And, you know, and I think that means learning not to ask for permission, don't wait for validation. And, you know, and don't depend on anybody else to believe in your vision before you do.

You know, I've had to walk away from, you know, toxic environment and step into unknown, of starting a business. And. And. But. But through that, always kind of trust that I would land on my feet. Yeah.

And I think the more you do that, over time, you kind of build that muscle. Yeah, yeah. Sort of. Kind of self trust, which is, you know, transformational. So. Yeah, I think those are the two lessons. I'm not an island.

That bet on yourself. Yeah.

Iyabo Oba: 00:46:50

Love it. And we'll make reference to that RC book reference that you made earlier. We'll put that in the show notes as well, because he's. She's an absolute g.

I love all what he had to say.

Rola Aina: 00:47:03

Amazing.

Iyabo Oba: 00:47:04

Yeah. And then what's been the ick. What's been a regret or a lesson that you've received from a relationship?

Rola Aina: 00:47:14

Okay, so the reason I'm laughing is the first thing to say is I love this question because, you know, it's catchy and.

Iyabo Oba: 00:47:20

And the reference.

Rola Aina: 00:47:21

And if, you know, you know, but I. I hate the concept because it's so judgmental.

It's like, you know, I see it as kind of like emotional fast food because it's so instant, it's so shallow, and it. It kind of usually says more about the person that's feeling the ick than the other person.

Iyabo Oba: 00:47:45

But very insightful.

Rola Aina: 00:47:47

Having said that, my basic is people who are totally different at work than they are in real life. I find it very compelling.

You know, you encounter people that, you know, they're a loving spouse, they're amazing friend, you meet their kids and you know, their kids are obsessed with them, they're such doting parents, but they turn into a terror the moment that they're in this corporate setting.

Iyabo Oba: 00:48:15

Yeah, yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:48:16

And I, I, you know, I'm not saying you need to bring your weekend like weekend vibes into the boardroom, but you know, just basic decency is not negotiable.

You know, I think, you know, and I'm a real believer that you can be assertive without being aggressive, you know, like doable and you can be super results driven but you can still, still show compassion to other people.

And you know, this sort of trope of the high performer being used as an excuse for bad behavior just is, you know, now it doesn't make any sense because there's loads of data that tells us the opposite that, you know, these toxic top performers tank businesses. So I just don't understand why, why this is still a thing, you know, and I think even more so with the new generation and the work course.

I think, you know, Gen Z and below are not really standing for, you know, coming to work to be treated, you know, very, very poorly. So yeah, that's when I thought about ick. That was like ick, ick, ick.

People who are not authentic and just, you know, choose to, to make other people's lives very difficult. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a.

Iyabo Oba: 00:49:33

Very, very, I wholeheartedly concur with that perspective. You need to be the, if you're the same, you're, if you're like this in the workplace, then you are, chances are you're like that actually at home.

So there's to have that incompety, it doesn't really work, does never really work.

Like you say, if it, if it affects the bottom line at the end of the day as well, and also just not even the bottom line with regard to profitability but with regards to sort of people's well being and the fact that, you know, an individual might actually be a drain and people don't want to work, then that's a problem. Yeah, I have lots to say about that. But it's not my interview. This is yours.

And then the final question is just to refocus it around sort of AI and relationships and how do, how do these work out? If you were in relation to or in the general theme of relationship, how do you think these work together?

Rola Aina: 00:50:41

So you know, I think if I frame it in terms of you know, what I just talked about, which is bet on yourself, build with others, you know, in community, essentially, and be kind. Don't be a mean person. You know, I think the first thing is what I mentioned previously, which is that, you know, I see AI as neutral.

It's not good or bad. It's just a mirror.

Iyabo Oba: 00:51:04

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:51:04

So it reflects whatever we put into it.

Iyabo Oba: 00:51:09

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:51:09

So I think that, you know, if we show up with, you know, it's kind of exploitation and fear and scarcity, AI is going to amplify that. And if we lead instead with, you know, sort of ethics and inclusion and generosity, basically, AI is going to amplify that as well.

And I think that where we are now with AI, I see so many parallels with, you know, kind of the early days of the Internet. Not right at the beginning because I wasn't born, but, oh, I would have been a very baby.

s, early: 2000

Iyabo Oba: 00:51:46

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:51:46

Not company had a website and. And that wasn't weird, you know.

Iyabo Oba: 00:51:50

Yeah.

Rola Aina: 00:51:51

There was a time when, you know, people thought, you know, online shopping would never catch on because people would always go into shops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a very hilarious article from Newsweek. I think it is time on YouTube. I think it's Newsweek. It's from the 90s.

And it's actually really funny to read now because they. There's like, you know, it says things like, oh, they're predicting will buy books and newspapers on the Internet.

Iyabo Oba: 00:52:20

Sure.

Rola Aina: 00:52:20

Who's going to do that kind of thing? You know, that is just exactly, you know, is standard for us now.

You know, people were either afraid of or, you know, the AI is kind of following a very similar adoption curve to Internet and other new technologies of you start off with the hype, then you get the fear. Everyone's verified what's going to happen, so you get pushback.

But then you start to get the regulation, which then, you know, kind of settles everything and then makes sort of integration possible. And then it becomes mainstream, it becomes run of the mill.

And while all of that, that cycle, adoption cycle is happening, the AI evolving, it's getting smarter, it's getting faster, it's getting more accessible. So I think for me, the question isn't, you know, is AI going to change things? It's more how do we shape what that change looks like.

And I think when I think about the, you know, the bet on yourself, the building community, the be kind, I think the, the bet on yourself is, I love that AI probably Makes it easier to start a business. It doesn't make it easier to be successful in business, though. But I love that it kind of enables. Yeah, enables that. And I really celebrate that.

And, you know, I even. I did a little chat GPT tutorial for my parents the other day, which was very sweet because, oh, my gosh, this is gonna be so useful. This is so good.

But so, you know, I'm very, very AI, you know, kind of air positive, encouraging people to use it and, you know, especially if it allows people to kind of bet on themselves. Yeah. But, you know, the build with others, the community element, the be kind element. I think that, you know, we just need to remember to be human.

We get to decide if we use AI responsibly. And, you know, I said earlier we vote with our money or our clicks and our choices.

And, you know, we can support the builders, prioritize ethics, prioritize sustainability.

And, you know, I think one of the things I mentioned earlier about, you know, just loving like a long LinkedIn post that was written by a person and not, not, not an AI chatbot. And, you know, that's really beautiful. Like, you know, the.

We all have these quirks and weird sentence structure and warmth and when you, if you pay attention, you can really feel that in things that are human created. And yeah, I think that humans are the best, so we should preserve that.

And so I hope, you know, kind of in my relationship, in our collective relationship with AI and how that works out in the future, I hope that, yeah, we continue to be human and preserve that element as much as possible.

Iyabo Oba: 00:55:15

Well, I think that's a fabulous note to end our interview on about being human and being kind of.

So thank you so much, Rona, and thank you for all your insight and your wisdom and all the jokes that you shared as well, and also all the references that we've made. We'll put those in the show notes. But thank you so much for your time. It's been wonderful to have you on. Before you go, where can people find you?

What's the best way people can connect with you? And have you got anything coming up that you want to share?

Rola Aina: 00:55:50

Yeah, I think, you know, if you, if you've liked kind of what you've heard and, and you want more information, then head to turntrup.com so turn troop T U R N T R-O-O-P.com and sign up for our newsletter so that you can get, you know, alerts as we start to release product. And also you can connect with us and then also feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. So I'm roller Aina on LinkedIn.

So the next phase for us is kind of building our MVP and really, really nailing that sort of product market fit, as well as building the community and continuing to kind of deepen relationships in Nigeria, specifically as a starting point in Africa.

So, yeah, I think for me, the big thing would be just if there are people that this resonated with, that they get in touch, we can kind of figure out. Yeah. If they can be part of the journey.

Iyabo Oba: 00:56:48

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that. And, yeah, this is the end of relationships. And AI with my. Thanks so much for being on my show.

Rola Aina: 00:57:01

Thank you. Take care. See you later. Sam.

Iyabo Oba: 00:57:32

SA.